tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1094701499334377825.post5780370374824857313..comments2024-03-26T00:50:09.425-04:00Comments on Exploring for Truth: Death Examined (Pt 2)Jeff McCormackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04376814441324031992noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1094701499334377825.post-80702224226770847542009-01-02T20:49:00.000-05:002009-01-02T20:49:00.000-05:00The "dying you shall die" construction is a common...The "dying you shall die" construction is a common verbal one, and does mean (as has been traditionally translated) "you shall surely die." The same construction appears in the previous verse, Gen 2.16: "Eating you shall eat of every tree of the garden," which means "you may/will surely eat."<BR/><BR/>Drawing conclusions from concordances or dictionaries is pretty dangerous without some basic understanding of how the languages work....Rabbi Saulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698627339947358840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1094701499334377825.post-53624358665634174172008-12-23T10:10:00.000-05:002008-12-23T10:10:00.000-05:00Well Dave, I honestly am not sure what I think abo...Well Dave, I honestly am not sure what I think about the trees, so will reserve that answer for later after much more study. <BR/><BR/>Great point about the need for eating and immortality. That is an aspect that never hit me before, so thanks for that "illumination" (lol).<BR/><BR/>The comment about killing animals to eat though, is slightly more complicated. We actually do not see any comment or command that he eat the animals, and seem to be given our first taste of an animal dying only after the sin, when God kills some to make clothing for them. The verse you quoted says:<BR/><BR/><I>See, I have given you every plant yielding seed...every tree yielding in its fruit...you shall have them for food. And to every beast...bird...creeps...I have given every green plant for food.</I><BR/><BR/>So, the animals, he says, have been given every green plant for food, and humans have been given seeds and fruit. But it doesn't say we are to eat the animals, so people assume that Adam and Eve (and all mankind) <I>should</I> be vegetarian, but that after the fall, they became meat eaters. Of course, we know that after the flood God did plainly state:<BR/><BR/><I>And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. <B>Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.</B> And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. (Gen 9:1-3 ESV)</I><BR/><BR/>Of course these verses follow right on the heels of the verse you mention in Gen 8:20-22, which tells us that God has lifted the curse of the ground that was brought about by Adam. So he lifted the ground curse, and said we may eat of plants and animals too.<BR/><BR/>I was going to deal with the other parts of the curse issue in a future segment, but I too see the return to dust as natural and not part of the curse. God says man came out of dust, he <I>is</I> dust, and therefore will return to dust. I don't see any inference that man had been "not dust" before the fall. I think this applies more towards the fact that the tree of life may have "cured" or prolonged the return to dust, but not that Adam somehow lost immortality within himself. If he had immortality, it was because he had access to the tree of life, and not something innate within him. <BR/><BR/>There is one other aspect of the dying in the very day issue that is interesting, coming from the Book of Jubilees:<BR/><BR/>"Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it." (Chap. 4:29-31)<BR/><BR/>The Book of Jubilees is like another expounded and detailed Genesis account, and does pitch an interesting aspect on it. Maybe I will examine that further in a future segment too.Jeff McCormackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376814441324031992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1094701499334377825.post-92001862297850726602008-12-23T09:29:00.000-05:002008-12-23T09:29:00.000-05:00Jeff,Do you think that the Tree of Life in Genesis...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Do you think that the Tree of Life in Genesis was a physical tree? Could it be the Type of the Trees of Life in Revelation? Meaning that if the Tree of Life in Genesis is the Type and the Trees of Life in Revelation are the Anti-Type then are the latter, spiritual "trees"? If so what is there meaning/purpose? And why are there two? <BR/><BR/>I actually had this conversation with one of the associate pastors at my church who told me that to say that there was physical death before the fall is reading into the text too much. That since it may be a picture of what heaven is like that it is doubtful that man was dying before the transgression since there is no death in heaven. <BR/><BR/>I personally think you don't have to read to much into the text to figure out that Adam was created as a mortal being. IMO Here are two good example verses to prove so:<BR/><BR/>Genesis 1:29-30(NRSV) God said, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."<BR/><BR/>So my questions to someone who says such things as mentioned before would be, what was the purpose of the food if man was immortal? Was it not for the same reason we eat today? To obtain the nutrients from the food our bodies need to sustain life even if it is temporal? And if there was no physical death in the garden how did Adam eat of the beast of the earth and birds of the air and everything that creeps on the earth that God gave to him for food, along with the plants/herbs yeilding seed, if Adam didn't kill them?<BR/><BR/>Genesis 3:17-19(NRSV) "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; <BR/><BR/>(My understanding is that the "curse" ends here. The rest of v.17b-19 is God expounding on what the ground being cursed means for Adam.)<BR/><BR/>in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."<BR/><BR/>Most people of course say that since God told Adam that he would return to the dust here means that he would now begin to die physically. I've also heard people say that God did tell Adam that he would die the day he ate of the tree and as an act of grace God postponed Adam's immediate death and that is why he lived 800 years beyond the transgression. (Talk about reading into the text.) As mentioned before God said cursed is the GROUND because of Adams sake. God didn't say cursed is the ground and your life. Again I believe God was just telling Adam that instead of living the easy life until he died he was now going to have to work his butt off until the day he died. The wording here, at least in the english, just doesn't support man's returning to dust as a direct result of God's curse on the ground. Which BTW for those interested was lifted after the flood when Noah offered burnt offerings to God. (Genesis 8:21) So sorry no reason for God to burn up the earth to rid the earth of its curse. It has already been lifted.David Carrawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09192287577147719778noreply@blogger.com